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 SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo

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squirlz

squirlz

Posts : 384
Join date : 2009-11-19
Age : 39
Location : New Glarus, WI

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PostSubject: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 9:21 am

This is what i have been thinking about. I have always leaned towards all motor but the appeal of a nice small turbo build is still there. Most of the reason for turbo is i have never had one. Lets keep cost out of the discussion for now but as always it is a factor.

VE: Goal = 220-230whp
11:1 ish, want to keep pump gas w/o E85
N1 or Kelford cams
4:1 Header
Intake manifold (if i can find someone who makes one)
Ported and Polished head
+1mm valves (any input if worth it?)

DE+T: Goal = 240-250whp
10.5:1
S4 cams
Tubular turbo manifold
Built Intake manifold
Ported and Polished head
+1mm Valves
BOV
Waste gate

Common parts:
Calum realtime ECU
Mild if any bottom end work (possible knife edge and balance)
Adjustable cam gears
3" exhaust

I am not so familiar with turbos but if i could tune the motor to have a lower torque curve and get the boost to start at ~3K and hold to red line, i think it would be a substitute for a high comp all motor build. I love the simplicity and cleanliness of an all motor build but a well designed turbo build could be just as good if not better in the top end.

I would like to have everyones thoughts on experiences as i need to do a lot more research before i even think about either build. Mostly just pipe dreams right now but this is the goal for the car.
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NismoWI

NismoWI

Posts : 127
Join date : 2009-11-21
Age : 32

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PostSubject: RE: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 10:55 am

(Most hp to your $)

If u want a high compression turbo build I would actually use a VE motor and put a t25 or t28 setup on it.
here are some of the plus of the VE motor:


1. VE head flows better then a de so no need to have head work if not want to
2. U can have vvl activate with ur turbo to help spool up
3. VE is higher compression already
4. VE has oil squirter just like det block




(N/A is always co$t more )

If all motor i would go with what u got I am not sure about the bigger valves. Yet again I would use the VE motor. The (VE has 4cw cranks) You can get CP pistons for like $600 for a 12.5.1 C/R. If u go with aftermarket cams I would suggest you get the kelford 185-c/N1/20v.


Last edited by NismoWI on Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wow I read through this again and I was giving wrong info...Didn't realize it!!!)
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squirlz

squirlz

Posts : 384
Join date : 2009-11-19
Age : 39
Location : New Glarus, WI

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 12:07 pm

Actually the VE+T makes the most sense. If i got the Kelfords you would have the lower 20V lobes to get it going then the turbo would start to spool, then the high lobes would kick in and off it goes. I would still like the turbo to spool around 3K rpm then the high lobes would switch around 5-5.5K from what i have seen.

Thanks for the input, i might as well just start with a VE and go from there.
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NismoWI

NismoWI

Posts : 127
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Age : 32

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 12:12 pm

thats best in my opinion!
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Big Ben
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Big Ben

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Join date : 2009-09-23
Age : 37
Location : Madison, WI

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 12:19 pm

I would run at lease a T28 if not run a disco potato. The 25 might work, but I think it will be a tad on the small size. I wanted to go this route but the house project came up and couldnt afford it. I might try and find a VE head and go with the set up I have. If you need any help nick, let me know.
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xCONWRATHx

xCONWRATHx

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Location : Sun Priaire, WI

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 1:34 pm

Why would you want a tubular exhaust mani and custom intake mani for the DE+T with those power goals?

The way you have your DE+T setup described you could give it an E85 tune and jack up the boost and make way more power, if only for a weekend.
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squirlz

squirlz

Posts : 384
Join date : 2009-11-19
Age : 39
Location : New Glarus, WI

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 2:27 pm

xCONWRATHx wrote:
Why would you want a tubular exhaust mani and custom intake mani for the DE+T with those power goals?

The way you have your DE+T setup described you could give it an E85 tune and jack up the boost and make way more power, if only for a weekend.

Your probably right with the intake mani and exhaust mani. I was thinking around 7ish PSI of boost, not a whole lot but enough to see some gains.
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xCONWRATHx

xCONWRATHx

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 4:47 pm

As a point of reference, the highest (documented) HP VE is SUNNYboi's at 212HP,

http://www.sr20-forum.com/tuning/10391-most-powerful-engines-thread-dyno-thread-powerful-cars-tuners.html
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squirlz

squirlz

Posts : 384
Join date : 2009-11-19
Age : 39
Location : New Glarus, WI

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 5:02 pm

Others have done more, there was debate over it but there were dyno numbers. Also from reading some other posts people are making even more (pure race motors) but just do not post on the intranet. I think bumping up the compression a little, a port and polish, and a nice intake mani i could be there. I will dig up some info to try and shed some light. The more info i have the better, good or bad.

DJ, didnt you put down 210-215? You have a VE, please chime in.
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chiquae07

chiquae07

Posts : 69
Join date : 2009-11-21
Location : Killwaukee

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 9:20 pm

xCONWRATHx wrote:
As a point of reference, the highest (documented) HP VE is SUNNYboi's at 212HP,

http://www.sr20-forum.com/tuning/10391-most-powerful-engines-thread-dyno-thread-powerful-cars-tuners.html

as he doesnt post numbers, but i was told from a friend that juns car put down 270-280ish that weekend with the newest build. and we all know that thing is running a kesi header too. but we are looking at a full 100% build to the fullest car.
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squirlz

squirlz

Posts : 384
Join date : 2009-11-19
Age : 39
Location : New Glarus, WI

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 9:31 pm

From what i have read i think 230 is achievable with stock internals with N1 cams, full bolt ons, good header, intake mani, and a good tune. If i bump it up a little to 11:1 i would think 230whp would be a nice goal.
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BORNGEARHEAD

BORNGEARHEAD

Posts : 246
Join date : 2009-11-18
Location : Madison, WI

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Nov 21, 2009 10:46 pm

squirlz wrote:
Others have done more, there was debate over it but there were dyno numbers. Also from reading some other posts people are making even more (pure race motors) but just do not post on the intranet. I think bumping up the compression a little, a port and polish, and a nice intake mani i could be there. I will dig up some info to try and shed some light. The more info i have the better, good or bad.

DJ, didnt you put down 210-215? You have a VE, please chime in.


I did 199whp before tuning at Dynotuned. Then I did 200whp at Midwest Hybrid after tuning but they were two different dynos. One was a mustang and one was a dynodynamics, or something like that. When I posted everything up a while back people were doing the calculation conversion between the 2 dynos and they said that you multiply by some % but I didn't pay much attention. I think they were saying I'd be around the 210-220 but I really don't know/remember. I wanted to stay out of all that gibber-gabber, just posted my #s. That thread is floating around the sr20 forum. I think it's under my member's rides. After tuning, my peak hp changed some but the big improvement was the power increase in the midrange, night and day difference. The car felt a lot different.

I have to say, turbo is way more fun to drive BUT all-motor is way easier/cheaper to drive. I have never had my car let me down yet and I have never had to fix anything on it. The turbo guys I know are constantly working on their cars.

I just can't believe how cheap VEs are going for now. I should just buy one and build it so I can keep my car running instead of it being down while I do a build.
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insane imports



Posts : 278
Join date : 2009-11-29
Age : 36
Location : kimberly, WI

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptyWed Dec 09, 2009 8:17 am

Hands down, the most fun set up i had was a de+t with a t25/t28 on it. THe boost fell off toward redline but you could prob get it to hold better with a better wg actuator. I made 255whp and 277ft lb's at 14psi. I can try and dig up the dyno chart if you want to see it. Also i was on a superflow dyno which reads lower than a dynojet or a mustang dyno.

Here was the set up i was running. Jwt turbo 4 bar 370's bored stock maf program,also had a safc on top of the ecu to tune with, tmic set up, bb mani, bb o2 housing, 2.5" mandrel bent catless turbo back, hks evc 4 boost controller, bored stock maf, nismo fpr, walbro 255, 370's, and a t25/28 turbo. I was running pump gas as well 93 oct.
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200sx se-r kid

200sx se-r kid

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Location : Fond du Lac WI

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptyFri Jan 01, 2010 5:21 pm

imo go with a sr20det that come boosted from factory. safe and reliable fun fast driving. but im kinnda byest so lol

SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo Na_mot21
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insane imports



Posts : 278
Join date : 2009-11-29
Age : 36
Location : kimberly, WI

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySat Jan 07, 2012 5:05 pm

I say slap a t25 set up on a 9.5:1 de with a decent intercooler, 3" exhaust and a good tune you will be well over 230 whp and still have reliability and very responsive set up. T28's are a bit more laggy but still are very fun. I guess the ultimate would be a ball bearing t25 for response.

I ran my intitail set up that i bought from NX-DET for a couple of years without any problems. Did quite a few auto cross events, one drivers school at road america and beat the hell out of it daily until the headgasket finally went. That set up was solid, i used to let any one of my friends take it on a beat run and not worry about it.

I am kind of biased though (6 turbo set ups so far). I have contimplated going na dozens of times but i keep going back to boost. yes i am an addict. Very Happy

If i was going to go na it would be with a vq30 or vq35 in my nx not any type of de or ve.
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insane imports



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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptySun Jan 08, 2012 2:03 pm

If you are going to go ve+t i would consider meth injection. You should have a very safe reliable set up that should run off pump gas just fine. Set it up to spray when boost comes on.
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squirlz

squirlz

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptyMon Jan 09, 2012 3:07 pm

Im going high comp NA VE now.
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Big Ben
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Big Ben

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptyTue Jan 10, 2012 7:20 am

Or run E85.
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insane imports



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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptyTue Jan 10, 2012 9:04 pm

Yeah e85 is a whole other can of worms. Depending on where you are it can be hard to find at a station, having to add a much larger pump or an additional pump possibly different lines 35-40% larger injectors than you would normally run for given boost and power goals etc........ Plenty of people i know have gone this route as well, but i don't feel like taking 4-8 5 gallon gas cans with me in the car when i go to a high speed auto cross event or a lapping day if there isn't a station around. Easier to take one spare 5 gallon gas can filled with meth. along for a day of racing.

I know the gains of metanol injection and the ease of use once set up, the cost isn't too much and i can get it locally. On a friends evo 8 he gained 30whp with methanol and runs 25psi daily with 91 octaine pump gas and meth. with the ecu re flashed for it.

I will be running meth injection in my nx hopefully this summer so i can up the boost some more. Thinking 22psi or so on pump gas daily with the 18g. Smile
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squirlz

squirlz

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 2:25 pm

Planning on e85, pretty easy to find around here.
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93sapphirecoupe



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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 5:00 pm

all motor e85? 14:1 compression anyone?
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insane imports



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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 6:45 pm

93sapphirecoupe wrote:
all motor e85? 14:1 compression anyone?

Twisted Evil Sounds like that would be a lot of fun.

Squirlz: looking forward to seeing how your car turns out.
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squirlz

squirlz

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PostSubject: Re: SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo   SR20VE vrs High comp DE turbo EmptyWed Jan 18, 2012 8:26 am

Me to, i plan on tearing down the bottom end soon and taking it in for machining. Once that checks out ill order the pistons, cams, springs, & retainers, and have the head machined and cleaned.
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